CiviMail in 2.2 and advanced search

[xavier]

Hi,

Was reading http://wiki.civicrm.org/confluence/display/CRM/USPIRG+Project+(Phase+2+in+CiviCRM+v2.2) (a lot of really nice things on the pipe)

I've always have problems explaining why they are two features for mailing (action mail on the search vs. CiviMail), and that new planned feature is going to blurry the line even more:

"Allow dynamic querying of the db and include contacts returned by that query (i.e. be able to plugin a zipcode or state etc) – this should work outside CiviMail too"

Some technical details put aside (eg. "ain't possible"), wouldn't it be more logical to be able to use a search result on civicrm ? so you can filter by zip, add an extra feature to target based on gender, hair color and age (planned for 2.3 anyway ? ...

Basically, these two options are functionally identical (send stuff to contact by email), it would make sense to merge them IMO.

X+

[Dave Greenberg]

Xavier - I'm not sure there's a "correct" answer to whether "Send Email to Contact(s)" and "CiviMail" should be separate. However, it seems to me that there are distinct  use cases / requirements...

Send Email to Contact(s) - The model is basically the same as sending a simple / quick message to 1 or a few people from Outlook / my email client. However, it has the benefit of keeping a record of the communications inside the CRM. Ideally a single-step UI.

CiviMail mailings - Broadcast messaging to many (hundreds / thousands) or constituents (Newsletters, Campaign announcements, etc.). Features like sending test messages, preview, unsubscribe links, click-thru tracking and list maintenance via bounce handling are needed. Ok to be a multi-step process since making mistakes impacts a large number of constituents, etc.

That said - would be great to hear other folks feedback on this. Should we consider merging these functions in some way - or continue down the current path? If merging - how can we accomodate the different requirements (or are they really not different) ??

[xavier]

Hi

In my mind, the issue is to define where the border is between the two tools, 20, 50 ? 1  ?

Say 20, for the sake of the discussion. Why at 21 should we manage the bounce automatically, but not at 20 ? Well, I know that always come up in the trainings about what difference they are between the two and what is the absolute definitive rule about when to use one or another. And no matter what, you can have lists of 1 and send them a mail via civi

I'd argue that some features that are only available on the "civimail" (eg tracking the clicks), would be useful as well on the "simple mail". I'd argue that it's the same the other way around (eg using the advanced search selection criterias).

I've seen that some features have been developed twice (eg add an attachement), because they are two different tools, that do the same.

I do agree with your point that they are different usages beteen "outlook like" and between the newsletter, but I don't see any reason not to use the same tool for both usages.

Even if they where (eg no need to wait on the cron to send 1 mail), that's easier to add a switch (defer to cron/send immediately) on the same feature, mutualise all the other ones that are already here, and develop only once all the nice evolutions that will come (eg the no need to hack postfix anymore, php read mail and box+token@domain mail format

Is there are reason at a technical level to provide the same feature (basically), with two different tools ?

X+

 

[Dave Greenberg]

Xavier - I think this would be a good subject for a blog post. Can you blog about your thoughts on this and see what thoughts / perspectives we get back?

[xavier]

Done (let's blame the system pretending that's hard to find how to post on the blog to justify the delay).

http://civicrm.org/node/452

If Lobo could comment about what  USPIRG needs could be done via the advanced search (or the custom search at least) and if it would make sense on this specific need (assuming it's technically possible to plug CiviMail as an action on the search results).

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[Donald Lobo]

For U.S. PIRG the civimail flow will remain the same. In addition to include groups/mailings, there will also be an option to filter a group via a custom / standard search and some arguments (passed in during mailing construction time)

So you can include all contacts from group XXX filtered by args A, B, C (where XXX, A, B, and C are entered by the user)

I do agree with dave, that the two features are quite distinct and should be kept seperate

lobo

[xavier]

@Lobo:

Would it make it possible to use the search (or advanced or custom) as a way to select contacts for CiviMail ?

use case scenario:
Got an event, want to send an email to all the guys that are registered but haven't paid yet.
want to send an email after the event (thanks for coming, here are the slides...)

For me, this is clearly mass mailing CiviMail area, but as I don't want to create two smart groups per event, I use the normal mail feature (and I miss some features of CiviMail, and it clutter my activity list with n mail activities, one per contact)

I do understand you point about the two features being distinct, but more often than not, I end up choosing one or the other not because what is their theoretical goal, but because one offers a feature the other doesn't and vice versa.

Would it be possible to keep the two tools separated, but be able to add civimail as an action and be able to use the search features to select the targeted contacts ?


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[Donald Lobo]

Would it make it possible to use the search (or advanced or custom) as a way to select contacts for CiviMail ?

Using custom search that adheres to the interface will definitely be part of 2.2. Am also trying to fit in civicrm advanced search via API (but this is secondary)

Would it be possible to keep the two tools separated, but be able to add civimail as an action and be able to use the search features to select the targeted contacts ?

For 2.2, we'll keep the flow the same, but allow folks to specify search parameters in the "add groups" screen. We'll probably take another look at it once we have something working.

lobo

[Denver Dave]

Difference between send email to contacts and CiviMail

We are starting to have committee chairpersons using send email to contacts because it is quick and easy, and encourages them to keep the CiviCRM information up to date.    Send email to contacts does not have any of the opt out stuff, but that is OK, because we are typically sending to people we know well.  It would be nice to be able to put a limit on who could send email to contacts and how many.  Initially, I was telling people up to 20, but I've been afraid some may use to send to the entire database at one time (8,000).   However, since we send 80 every 10 minutes with CiviMail, I figure that it might be OK for them to send 80 with send email to contacts.

CiviMail has a separate authorization for us and tends to be larger, more "official mailings".  In version 1.9, CiviMail was a lot harder for us to send than send email to contacts, but testing 3.1.2, I see that CiviMail is much better and easier.  Also, it is great to be able to track mailings by person to see what people are doing.  Also, in 1.9 send email to contacts was text only, now has html like civimail.