Author Topic: Incorrect Return Address (Read 3321 times)

jforsythe · February 02, 2010, 09:42:33 am

When I use civimail, with a return address of something like jim@sampledomain.com, when you get the mail, if you click on reply, the address comes out as: r.18.20.d1b84bfd1646361c@sampledomain.com. Is there something I am doing wrong?

Piotr Szotkowski · February 03, 2010, 01:47:29 am

No, this is the expected behaviour; it’s the only way CiviMail can track (and forward) replies. (Note that you can setup this to be something like civimail+r.18.20.d1b84bfd1646361c@example.com and then all such emails will go to civimail@example.com; you can then process that mailbox with CiviMail Processor.)

If you want something like jim@example.com then you need to uncheck the ‘track replies’ checkbox when defining a mailing.

jforsythe · February 04, 2010, 09:24:35 am

There is a "forward replies" option, but unchecking that did not help get the real address listed.

Piotr Szotkowski · February 12, 2010, 08:16:07 am

Argh, right, apologies; we moved that option to the Mailing Content stage (step 3 of 5 of the wizard) – it’s the ‘Override VERP address?’ checkbox.

(Note that the SMTP envelope will still contain the r.18.20.d1b84bfd1646361c-ish part, as CiviMail uses this to track bounces – but the Reply-To: header won’t be rewritten.)

jforsythe · February 12, 2010, 11:56:36 am

Thanks - that is working now - thanks! Also, in messing around I figured out how to get the VERP stuff working properly.

xavier · February 22, 2010, 01:38:12 pm

Hi,

VERP is supposed to be the envelope email, not the return to:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variable_envelope_return_path

By overriding the VERP, I'm expecting to receive the bounce on the mailbox of the sender, for instance because the bounced email is temporary dead or whatever.

If the only benefit of return address is to be able to track the replies, I'd suggest not to do it altogether or at least to disable it by default:

If you reply to an email, it gets added to your address book, I'd rather not have that VERP unreadable email as my official email for the org.

If you send an email from a known email, it's more likely to get whitelisted and not being caught as spam. Don't find any reference to that right now, but I'm pretty sure that having a whitelisted known from but an unknown return-path is more likely to be triggered as a spam than a simple from=return-path (and the envelope being different).

X+

Denver Dave · February 22, 2010, 03:22:46 pm

My bouncing "no such email here" issue was solved by by host turning off "sender verification".

However, it does seem like the VERP override may not really be overriding:
http://forum.civicrm.org/index.php/topic,12354.0.html

Piotr Szotkowski · February 24, 2010, 04:53:03 am

Quote from: xavier on February 22, 2010, 01:38:12 pm

VERP is supposed to be the envelope email, not the return to:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variable_envelope_return_path

I’m not sure what you mean by ‘return to’ – Return-Path or Reply-To?

If I’m not mistaken, there are certain setups where either the SMTP envelope FROM address, the From header, or the Return-Path must be ‘trusted’. Also, soft bounces go to Return-Path (as by the time a soft bounce happens the SMTP envelope is long gone).

Either way, we use variable Reply-To in different manner: to track replies (note that the Reply-To addresses contain the ‘r’ action, not the ‘b’ action).

Quote

By overriding the VERP, I'm expecting to receive the bounce on the mailbox of the sender, for instance because the bounced email is temporary dead or whatever.

But this is a different VERP (or, technically, VERP-like) address. The one for Reply-To is to track replies, the one for SMTP envelope and Return-Path is to track bounces.

Quote

If the only benefit of return address is to be able to track the replies, I'd suggest not to do it altogether or at least to disable it by default:

You can disable this on a per-mailing basis and

Quote

If you reply to an email, it gets added to your address book, I'd rather not have that VERP unreadable email as my official email for the org.

Hm. I never used this functionality in any of my email clients (as I think it’s broken by definition and absurd to let anyone spam my address book in this way), but I assume some people do use this. Why would your email client add the Reply-To address rather than the From address in this case, though?

Still, I don’t think there’s a good way to track replies otherwise – I think we toyed with the idea of having Reply-To with two addresses, so that the reply would go to the sender *and* a copy would go to CiviMail, but it didn’t work (I think the problem might’ve been that Reply-To can only have one email address or some such issue).

Quote

If you send an email from a known email, it's more likely to get whitelisted and not being caught as spam.

We don’t change the From, we only add Reply-To.

Quote

Don't find any reference to that right now, but I'm pretty sure that having a whitelisted known from but an unknown return-path is more likely to be triggered as a spam than a simple from=return-path (and the envelope being different).

Hm, I’m affraid I don’t follow you here. Envelope’s FROM should be the same as Return-Path, otherwise you can’t track hard (envelope) or soft (Return-Path) bounces. In my experience Return-Path is very rarely equal to From.

xavier · February 24, 2010, 06:16:45 am

Quote from: Piotr Szotkowski on February 24, 2010, 04:53:03 am

Quote from: xavier on February 22, 2010, 01:38:12 pm
VERP is supposed to be the envelope email, not the return to:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variable_envelope_return_path
I’m not sure what you mean by ‘return to’ – Return-Path or Reply-To?

Reply to.

Quote from: Piotr Szotkowski on February 24, 2010, 04:53:03 am

If I’m not mistaken, there are certain setups where either the SMTP envelope FROM address, the From header, or the Return-Path must be ‘trusted’. Also, soft bounces go to Return-Path (as by the time a soft bounce happens the SMTP envelope is long gone).

Ok, bit of confusion on my side. Envelope FROM and return-path should be similar indeed.

Quote from: Piotr Szotkowski on February 24, 2010, 04:53:03 am

Either way, we use variable Reply-To in different manner: to track replies (note that the Reply-To addresses contain the ‘r’ action, not the ‘b’ action).

Quote
By overriding the VERP, I'm expecting to receive the bounce on the mailbox of the sender, for instance because the bounced email is temporary dead or whatever.

But this is a different VERP (or, technically, VERP-like) address. The one for Reply-To is to track replies, the one for SMTP envelope and Return-Path is to track bounces.

Thanks for clarifying, it isn't described in the help nor the doc that they are two different VERP addresses generated. Might need to be more precise and specify that we are speaking about bounce-VERP and reply-VERP

Quote from: Piotr Szotkowski on February 24, 2010, 04:53:03 am
Quote
If the only benefit of return address is to be able to track the replies, I'd suggest not to do it altogether or at least to disable it by default:

You can disable this on a per-mailing basis and

Quote
If you reply to an email, it gets added to your address book, I'd rather not have that VERP unreadable email as my official email for the org.

Quote from: Piotr Szotkowski on February 24, 2010, 04:53:03 am
Hm. I never used this functionality in any of my email clients (as I think it’s broken by definition and absurd to let anyone spam my address book in this way), but I assume some people do use this. Why would your email client add the Reply-To address rather than the From address in this case, though?

Still, I don’t think there’s a good way to track replies otherwise – I think we toyed with the idea of having Reply-To with two addresses, so that the reply would go to the sender *and* a copy would go to CiviMail, but it didn’t work (I think the problem might’ve been that Reply-To can only have one email address or some such issue).

Now I'm confused. That's the default behaviour but you never use it ? If you don't override the VERP, that's what happens. Shouldn't the Override VERP be checked by default ?

The override VERP is probably a wrong name for the checkbox and the help is very confusing. Let me be sure I understand, I'll come back with a suggestion

Piotr Szotkowski · February 24, 2010, 08:08:14 am

Quote from: xavier on February 24, 2010, 06:16:45 am

By overriding the VERP, I'm expecting to receive the bounce on the mailbox of the sender, for instance because the bounced email is temporary dead or whatever.

Yeah, but we need a separate setting for this.

Quote from: xavier on February 24, 2010, 06:16:45 am

Thanks for clarifying, it isn't described in the help nor the doc that they are two different VERP addresses generated. Might need to be more precise and specify that we are speaking about bounce-VERP and reply-VERP

Right, the help is confusing there.

Quote from: xavier on February 24, 2010, 06:16:45 am

Quote from: Piotr Szotkowski on February 24, 2010, 04:53:03 am
Hm. I never used this functionality in any of my email clients (as I think it’s broken by definition and absurd to let anyone spam my address book in this way), but I assume some people do use this. Why would your email client add the Reply-To address rather than the From address in this case, though?

Now I'm confused. That's the default behaviour but you never use it ? If you don't override the VERP, that's what happens.

What I meant I never allow my mail client to automagically add anything to my address book, so I never found VERP addresses in my address book.

The other remark was that if I get email with a From set to organisation@example.com and a different address in Reply-To, I’d definitely add the From to the address book (as the From address is apparently the address they want to be known under; if the Reply-To is set at all, it’s usually set so the reply goes elsewhere just for this single email thread).

Quote

Shouldn't the Override VERP be checked by default ?

Well, it probably should be the other way around – unchecked and named ‘make CiviMail track replies’, so that the reply VERP is explicitly chosen for the given mailing (or as a global setting?).

The problem is that we need to make this work ‘as usual’ for people who actually prefer the current defaults.

Quote

The override VERP is probably a wrong name for the checkbox and the help is very confusing. Let me be sure I understand, I'll come back with a suggestion

Documentation patches most welcome, do let me know if anything’s still unclear.

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Author Topic: Incorrect Return Address (Read 3321 times)

jforsythe

Incorrect Return Address

Piotr Szotkowski

Re: Incorrect Return Address

jforsythe

Re: Incorrect Return Address

Piotr Szotkowski

Re: Incorrect Return Address

jforsythe

Re: Incorrect Return Address

xavier

Re: Incorrect Return Address. VERP is not the right name ?

Denver Dave

Re: Incorrect Return Address

Piotr Szotkowski

Re: Incorrect Return Address. VERP is not the right name ?

xavier

Re: Incorrect Return Address. VERP is not the right name ?

Piotr Szotkowski

Re: Incorrect Return Address. VERP is not the right name ?