Author Topic: CiviCRM / Drupal for small membership based non-profit? (Read 4238 times)

cudder23 · October 22, 2014, 07:12:25 am

I am working on a website for a small membership-based non-profit serving professionals with qualifications in a specific field.

I am considering using CiviCRM in conjunction with Drupal.

Here are the specs for the site that I think a CRM might be helpful for:

Any site visitor can submit applications for different types of memberships (Student, Associate).
The different membership applications will have some fields the same but some fields that are unique to the membership type.
The membership application will be reviewed by administrators of the site and either approved or disapproved.
The membership approval is based in part on payment for the membership (through PayPal). In other words, the membership is approved if the applicant meets certain criteria AND if they have paid for the membership.
Once the membership is approved, selected parts of the applicants information will be displayed in a public directory on the site.
The members will have the ability to edit and update their own information
A third type of membership—Full Membership—is restricted to Associate Members who have been active for 1 year.
Upgrading to Full Membership requires filling out a Full Membership application that has additional fields from the Associate Member information
The membership dues are automated (annual payments) and those payments are processed through PayPal.
The different types of memberships grant roles for the users: access to role-specific content, ability to post content types, etc.
The ability for an admin to send bulk emails to members of different types.
Members are associated with different organizations, sometimes more than one member per organization.

The membership of the organization is fairly small (100-150 members).

Is something like CiviCMR overkill for this project?

The client wants to have the ability to easily manage the memberships and to provide a directory for the public of all members of different types. But the Full Members should be displayed differently than the Associate Members. Full Members are listed with links to their contact information and details about their qualifications, whereas Associate Members are simply listed by name.

Is CiviCRM able to display members/contacts in publicly accessible Drupal Views, with control over how those Views are displayed?

Can CiviCRM help admins manage the recurring payments for the annual memberships? Reminder emails to members whose dues are due?

Coleman Watts · October 22, 2014, 07:36:04 am

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Is CiviCRM able to display members/contacts in publicly accessible Drupal Views, with control over how those Views are displayed?

Yes, I was going to suggest that Views will be a very useful tool for you.

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But the Full Members should be displayed differently than the Associate Members

Easiest way might be to make two views (one for each membership type, each displaying as you like) and then put them on the same page using blocks or panels.

I think Webform-CiviCrm Integration will also be super-helpful for your use-case, because you can set up forms specific to each piece of the workflow (a form for applying for membership, a form for reviewing and approving memberships, a form for renewing memberships).

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Can CiviCRM help admins manage the recurring payments for the annual memberships? Reminder emails to members whose dues are due?

I don't have much experience with those things. CiviCRM certainly has those features, but not sure of the specifics.

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Is something like CiviCMR overkill for this project?

Once you get your database/views/webforms configured the thing will be pretty much on auto-pilot, which could potentially save your staff a lot of time. As to whether it saves more time than it took to set-up, vs using a filing cabinet, well, do computers really save anyone time?

cudder23 · October 22, 2014, 08:37:59 am

Thank you for the help!

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Yes, I was going to suggest that Views will be a very useful tool for you.

So CiviCRM integrates well with Drupal Views out of the box? Or is there a module I'd need to add on?

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Easiest way might be to make two views (one for each membership type, each displaying as you like) and then put them on the same page using blocks or panels.

Right. This makes sense. I was also considering organizing a single View by type of membership. In other words, using a Table format and setting a Grouping Field of membership types.

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I think Webform-CiviCrm Integration will also be super-helpful for your use-case, because you can set up forms specific to each piece of the workflow (a form for applying for membership, a form for reviewing and approving memberships, a form for renewing memberships).

Yes, thank you for the tip.

https://www.drupal.org/project/webform_civicrm does sound like it would be very helpful for the various things I'm trying to do.

I see that you are the maintainer of that module, so it's good to see you here and responsive.

I also want to confirm that CiviCRM can do another thing in my list, (though I would be surprised if it couldn't):

11. The ability for an admin to send bulk emails to members of different types.

Lastly, I would love to have your feedback on a couple of things I've read/heard on drupal.org.

I have been asking questions over there about setting up this site and some commenters have steered me away from CiviCRM, complaining that it doesn't play well with some other Drupal modules (like Organic Groups, for instance).

I was encouraged to consider RedHen, built as a Drupal CRM tool from the start, and have installed it on a test site, but I have been having trouble getting support from the RedHen module maintainers trying to figure out some of the things I want to do. The RedHen documentation is pretty thin in some areas and there are promises (from two years ago) to build things like an integrated payment for Membership tool (beyond being able to turn on a "Membership" for an existing contact), that haven't been done.

So, my questions for you are:

Do you have trouble using CiviCRM with other Drupal modules? Do you find there are conflicts (like with Organic Groups)?
Do you find CiviCRM difficult to customize in Drupal since it is a standalone tool that wasn't built as a Drupal based tool?

Thank you!

Coleman Watts · October 22, 2014, 09:08:56 am

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So CiviCRM integrates well with Drupal Views out of the box?

Yes, integration is built-in, and nearly everything in Civi is exposed to Views.

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I was also considering organizing a single View by type of membership. In other words, using a Table format and setting a Grouping Field of membership types.

In that case you might have to resort to something like https://www.drupal.org/project/views_php to control the logic of whether or not to display the link for certain member types. My suggestion might be simpler to implement.

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I see that you are the maintainer of that module, so it's good to see you here and responsive.

And while I'm recommending my own modules, be sure to try http://drupal.org/project/webform_layout - it's amazing how little touches like a well-laid-out form can improve your mood

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The ability for an admin to send bulk emails to members of different types.

Yup. Smart-group mailing lists are your friend. http://book.civicrm.org/user/current/organising-your-data/smart-groups/

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Do you have trouble using CiviCRM with other Drupal modules? Do you find there are conflicts (like with Organic Groups)?

Quite the opposite, in fact CiviCRM ships with an OG-integration module, not that you really need OG for your use-case, civicrm_roles_sync (also shipped with core) will probably be sufficient.
CiviCRM was written for Drupal (Joomla & WP support was added later) and Drupal is still the most robust platform to run Civi from - as you've seen from just the few examples we've discussed, there are numerous integrations between the two.

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The RedHen documentation is pretty thin in some areas and there are promises (from two years ago) to build things like an integrated payment for Membership tool (beyond being able to turn on a "Membership" for an existing contact), that haven't been done.

There's something to be said for being the longest-running CRM for Drupal. CiviCRM is better documented, more feature-rich, and with a larger, more active community. I think it's the solid choice for your needs.

Hershel · October 22, 2014, 09:37:25 am

CiviCRM has a large user base and I don't think RedHen has much of one at all. Not to denigrate RedHen of course--that project has tremendous potential but much of it is not yet realized.

Quote from: Coleman Watts on October 22, 2014, 09:08:56 am

There's something to be said for being the longest-running CRM for Drupal. CiviCRM is better documented, more feature-rich, and with a larger, more active community. I think it's the solid choice for your needs.

You can't argue with Coleman either--he's right.

petednz · October 22, 2014, 12:18:59 pm

We keep an eye on RedHen and other drupal efforts for an in-built civicrm but nothing has yet shown to have much to offer as yet.

"I have been asking questions over there about setting up this site and some commenters have steered me away from CiviCRM, complaining that it doesn't play well with some other Drupal modules (like Organic Groups, for instance)."

To give you some ideas, we have built systems where by - for example

- each Civi Event created of a certain type auto creates a Drupal OG
- every Participant that registers for the Event gets added as a member of the OG

and similarly

- specified Relationships in civi will also trigger an OG
- anyone with that Relationship eg to a Contact Type of 'committee' gets added in to the OG

so to be fair, i think we can debunk the 'does not play nicely with OG' chatter ;-)

cudder23 · October 22, 2014, 12:43:37 pm

Thank you all for your thoughts.

Hershel wrote:

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CiviCRM has a large user base and I don't think RedHen has much of one at all. Not to denigrate RedHen of course--that project has tremendous potential but much of it is not yet realized.

Yes, this is what I have been finding. When I read the description of the RedHen project it sounded like it could do everything I wanted to do. But then when I'm looking for some documentation for using the RedHen Membership module, for example, and find this page:

https://www.drupal.org/node/1990592

...which has no content at all, that is discouraging. It links to this page:

https://www.drupal.org/project/redhen_membership

...which does have some basic instructions, but doesn't fully explain what the purpose of additional fields for Membership Types is, etc.

And the RedHen project itself hasn't been updated since Feb 2013.

So I'm not trying to denigrate RedHen either, but I'm finding that it doesn't seem to be fully supported for those of us not savvy enough to dig into code and write modules to glue pieces together.

But there is clearly an active support community here, and plenty of tools to do the things I need to do.

The other concern I've heard has been code bulk, with some CiviCRM critics saying it is so large that it slows down sites. Have any of you had this problem or found ways to address it if you have?

Thanks!

petednz · October 22, 2014, 01:26:42 pm

i think the other thing that many civi critics may not have caught up on is the greater integration between civi and drupal that is now possible in terms of
- webforms
- entities
- rules

and it is probably beholden on some of us infrequent bloggers to do a 'where things are at' in this regard and get it all in to one place.

That and fact that the Drupal 8 work for civi is well progressed gives some clear indications about longevity of it as a Drupal project

Hershel · October 23, 2014, 03:40:04 am

Quote from: cudder23 on October 22, 2014, 12:43:37 pm

The other concern I've heard has been code bulk, with some CiviCRM critics saying it is so large that it slows down sites. Have any of you had this problem or found ways to address it if you have?

Get good hosting. See here also:

http://forum.civicrm.org/index.php/topic,31972.0.html

cudder23 · October 26, 2014, 10:29:00 am

Hershel wrote:

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Get good hosting.

As far as hosting, the site is for a non-profit association with a limited budget that is already stretched thin. I have them hosted at GreenGeeks, with the basic plan (EcoSite Starter, ~$8/mo), which is a Drupal friendly site, but I don't know if it qualifies as robust enough for CiviCRM. Does anyone know? Should I ask them?

petednz wrote:

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I think the other thing that many civi critics may not have caught up on is the greater integration between civi and drupal that is now possible in terms of
- webforms
- entities
- rules

This is encouraging. I think the site needs to use all three of those.

One of the things I need to do is be able to capture anonymous users data, and later convert that to user data. The organization just provided their preferred flowchart for the membership process:

1. Submit Application: An anonymous user, i.e. not a Drupal user, ("Anon") fills out online form to apply for memberships (types 1 and 2).

Create 2 separate webforms, one for each membership.

2. Analysis of form input: If certain fields are filled out a certain way (e.g. state field is one of several options, but not any other options), "Anon" gets a link back to process payment for membership (PayPal). If not, site Admin gets form data to evaluate and determine if "Anon" should be sent link for PayPal payment (i.e. they look legit even though they have different state chosen).

Use Webform Conditional Confirmation (https://www.drupal.org/project/webform_conditional_confirmation).
Is there a way to automatically enter "Anon's" data as a new Contact in CiviCRM without also making "Anon" a Drupal user?

3. Payment: "Anon" makes PayPal payment via Drupal Commerce.

Is there a way to tie a Drupal Commerce product into a membership in CiviCRM?

4. Make User: "Anon" is given membership status and is made a Drupal user on the site that has access to portions of the site restricted to members.

Use Commerce CiviCRM(?) to make purchaser into new user with privileges? (https://www.drupal.org/project/commerce_civicrm).

5. Payment Pending: If PayPal payment is NOT made in a given amount of time, CiviCRM notifies site admin and/or sends out reminder email to "Anon" (?)

Is there a way to track if a user's payment is still in pending status? And in a given amount of time? Would you do this primarily with Rules? Or is there something already built into CiviCRM to do this? It looks like you can have PayPal notify CiviCRM that the payment has been made (http://wiki.civicrm.org/confluence/display/CRMDOC/PayPal+Website+Payments+Standard+and+Recurring+Contributions). Can CiviCRM be given time parameters to send notifications?

6. Once "Anon" becomes a type 1 member and a Drupal user, they are listed on site as type 1 member, both to admins and to the public.

I'm assuming there is a way to use Views in conjunction with CiviCRM to control display of contact listings for public use. Is that correct?

Then, and this is a KEY feature, at a later date the type 1 or type 2 members should be able to switch to being a type 3 member by filling out some additional information and making an additional payment.

Can you switch a contact from one type of contact to another? Or am I thinking of it wrong? Should the contact be the base information that is consistent across all membership types, and some additional aspect be the unique elements that make up the three types of memberships?

Dan C · October 26, 2014, 12:48:39 pm

Quote from: cudder23 on October 26, 2014, 10:29:00 am

Hershel wrote:
Quote
Get good hosting.

As far as hosting, the site is for a non-profit association with a limited budget that is already stretched thin. I have them hosted at GreenGeeks, with the basic plan (EcoSite Starter, ~$8/mo), which is a Drupal friendly site, but I don't know if it qualifies as robust enough for CiviCRM. Does anyone know? Should I ask them?

I had a client hosting at GreenGeeks and they were able to run Civi under Joomla, I don't see why it wouldn't work under Drupal. However, they were also under a basic plan and their site got hacked and GreenGeeks was not able to help at all with restoration. The client was told that GreenGeeks does not keep backups of the servers, so if you are hosting with them make sure you are doing your own regular backups.

cudder23 · October 26, 2014, 01:28:29 pm

Thank you for the warning, Dan.

According to this page:

https://kb.greengeeks.com/2534/greengeeks-backup-policies/

GreenGeeks makes nightly "disaster recovery backups" and keeps them for 48 hours and then overwrites them. They do 1 free restoration per month and then charge $25/restore after that.

I also have sites hosted at Site5 and they keep daily backups a lot longer than that and restore them for free.

I wish I'd looked into this more before I (just) purchased a year;s worth of hosting at GreenGeeks. I guess I'll make regular backups myself as you suggest.

Coleman Watts · October 26, 2014, 03:00:24 pm

Hosting is just not a big expense, period. Your org probably spends more on their phone bill than they do on hosting. So IMO eeking out a tiny bit more savings on an inferior hosting plan is not worth it at all. My org started out on a very cheap shared hosting plan that ended up costing us a lot of money and a lot of time with all the problems it caused. Moving to an inexpensive VPS made a world of difference and while the monthly hosting bill is a little bit more, on balance it is way cheaper to have a host that works well vs one that doesn't.

cudder23 · October 26, 2014, 03:40:34 pm

Coleman, I agree with you.

But it's not my org but rather a client who has hired me to improve their site (based on a proposal I offered them). I can recommend more money be spent on hosting, but the board has already voted that they don't want to spend any more on hosting than they already are. So it's kind of out of my hands.

But just for my information, what hosting companies do you recommend? And what do you think is a reasonable amount to pay per month for VPS?

Thanks

Donald Lobo · October 26, 2014, 08:19:11 pm

might want to check and use folks who support the ecosystem:

http://civicrm.org/providers/hosting

lobo

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Author Topic: CiviCRM / Drupal for small membership based non-profit? (Read 4238 times)

cudder23

CiviCRM / Drupal for small membership based non-profit?

Coleman Watts

Re: CiviCRM / Drupal for small membership based non-profit?

cudder23

Re: CiviCRM / Drupal for small membership based non-profit?

Coleman Watts

Re: CiviCRM / Drupal for small membership based non-profit?

Hershel

Re: CiviCRM / Drupal for small membership based non-profit?

petednz

Re: CiviCRM / Drupal for small membership based non-profit?

cudder23

Re: CiviCRM / Drupal for small membership based non-profit?

petednz

Re: CiviCRM / Drupal for small membership based non-profit?

Hershel

Re: CiviCRM / Drupal for small membership based non-profit?

cudder23

Re: CiviCRM / Drupal for small membership based non-profit?

Dan C

Re: CiviCRM / Drupal for small membership based non-profit?

cudder23

Re: CiviCRM / Drupal for small membership based non-profit?

Coleman Watts

Re: CiviCRM / Drupal for small membership based non-profit?

cudder23

Re: CiviCRM / Drupal for small membership based non-profit?

Donald Lobo

Re: CiviCRM / Drupal for small membership based non-profit?