Author Topic: Start Where? (Read 3659 times)

Perry · November 18, 2013, 08:45:12 pm

As I observed in this post, geeks should be disbarred from writing manuals.
It's not that I lack respect for their skills, more a horses-for-courses thing.
While I wend

my way through the customisation process, lots of ideas,
thoughts and questions run through my mind. One example: I became quite
puzzled by the distinction (and relationship?) between a membership and
a contact, from the perspective of any relationship and whether an NPO pri-
marily had members or contacts. Or maybe even both? If so, did they actually
know one another? Never mind get along together.

Using the search function, I tried to wade through an assortment of manuals
(documentation) and didn't end up any the wiser. As a geriatric volunteer for
an NPO, I offered (in a weak moment, you understand $:-\$ ) to implement
CiviCRM. I did so on the basis of some long-ago experience of (pre-Internet)
involvement with implementing and maintaining a m'ship database for another
NPO. So far, I don't think that historical experience has been much help.

Given that helpful people like Hershel provide a service that has removed all the
trauma of installation, I nurtured the quaint idea that half the job was done and
I only needed to customise the database / records to suit my elected NPO. Easy,
right?

Wrong.

I now have a better appreciation of why there are so many folks offering some
sort of CiviCRM customisation set-up service. I'm almost at the point of having
regrets at my offer to the aforesaid NPO. I had the idea that setting up something
that suited them - a sort of flat-file database - couldn't be that hard. Optimist!

Wrong again.

Maybe it's a matter of imprudent expectations? I grasp the concept that a person
might be a contact for a membership organisation, but what of Jill Citizen who is
simply an NPO member as a person without a (member?) organisation behind her?
For now, would some kind person please explain to me the essential aspects of
the differences between a membership and a contact? And if they have some sort
of significant other meaningful relationship? Or are ships in the night!

petednz · November 18, 2013, 09:05:21 pm

Hi - very briefly

contacts and members are critically different in many situations

Your organisation may 'only' have members, but if you want to keep your 'media contacts' in the db too, then they are 'not' members, but they are all contacts - not sure if that clears things for you but it does explain why Civi has the two concepts

second "I grasp the concept that a person
might be a contact for a membership organisation, but what of Jill Citizen who is
simply an NPO member as a person without a (member?) organisation behind her"

i assume you raise this is because you are trying to set up memberships.

So any membership 'type' has to have an organisation that ones becomes a member 'of'

for most NPO the 'organisation' is them - so there is a contact record for NPO - there is a membership type set

So if Mary wants to join the NPO she does so by getting a membership record (to that NPO)

ie if the outcome you want is that YOUR NPO lets people join then

- create a Membership Type with YOUR NPO as the organisation that people are joining.

- create more Membership Types with YOUR NPO if you offer eg student membership at a different cost.

Then when Mary or Hone sign up via your public Contribution Page, which you have set up to allow Memberships, they will become Members of YOUR NPO.

And other people who are NOT members of YOUR NPO can be 'in' your database as 'contacts' but not as 'members'

hope that helps a bit

Perry · November 18, 2013, 09:30:31 pm

Thanks, Pete.

('Hi' to Jenny Kaye and the brat pack, too

).

Yes, it gives me an insight that was completely eluding me. Ye olde
Cardbox database for the BPC was sooo much easier to implement.

Remember this?
http://happenstance.info/gallery/way_ahead.jpg

PS
Now trying to grasp where a constituent fits in!

petednz · November 18, 2013, 09:56:04 pm

Hey Perry - had a feeling it might have been you - something about the writing style maybe?

Yep JK and bratlets are well - 2 are on the joint OE somewhere in Turkey

For many use cases it can indeed just be easier to throw together a Google spreadsheet

Yes i do remember the booklet - and the good times of pushing the organic message.

So what is a 'constituent'? Depends. A contact with 'something' that you know about them to differentiate them from Joe Blow (who may or may not be a 'constituent' but you just don't know that yet?

Perry · November 18, 2013, 11:40:16 pm

Quote from: petednz on November 18, 2013, 09:56:04 pm

For many use cases it can indeed just be easier to throw together a Google spreadsheet.

The spreadsheet option failed the suck it and see test.
Went a bit haywire when someone did a sort, (more
than once!) but didn't select the entire spreadsheet,
first. So the data got displaced. Irrecoverable, from
what I understand. So they have to start afresh with
their paper records. And CiviCRM.

As for this:

Quote from: petednz on November 18, 2013, 09:56:04 pm

Yep JK and bratlets are well - 2 are on the joint OE somewhere in Turkey

. . . next you'll be telling me you're a grandpa.

Perry · November 19, 2013, 12:32:08 am

Quote from: petednz on November 18, 2013, 09:05:21 pm

I assume you raise this is because you are trying to set up memberships.
So any membership 'type' has to have an organisation that one becomes a member 'of'
- create a Membership Type with YOUR NPO as the organisation that people are joining.
- create more Membership Types with YOUR NPO if you offer eg student membership at a different cost.

So this outfit is national but has regional groups - e.g. Wellington.
What's best hierarchy (and order) with the set-up?

<your_npo> (top level)

<region_name> (m'ship or organisation type?)

<next???> (m'ship or organisation type - whatever is not used as a region_name?)

<contact>

petednz · November 19, 2013, 10:08:43 am

I suspect your 'members' are joining the national organisation.

Branches are something they associate with - and may not even associate with the one they necessarily geog. live in.

So a contact has a membership with the national NPO

and

A/ You either use a custom field either on the Contact or on the membership to record the branch

and.or

B/ you create all the Branches as Contacts (type Org) and create a Relationship between the Members 'individual records and the branch

That way you can also record a relationship for 'treasurer' between a person and the branch

and yes there can be coded solutions so that b/ follows automatically from a/ but you didn't hear that from me.

Perry · November 19, 2013, 01:56:28 pm

Quote from: petednz on November 19, 2013, 10:08:43 am

I suspect your 'members' are joining the national organisation.
So a contact has a membership with the national NPO

That is certainly the situation as I understand it.

Quote from: petednz on November 19, 2013, 10:08:43 am

Branches are something they associate with - and may not
even associate with the one they necessarily geog. live in.

In this case, I suspect that people/member/contacts in
certain regions will remain associated with that particular
regional grouping. Or maybe transfer if they relocate.

Quote from: petednz on November 19, 2013, 10:08:43 am

and
A/ You either use a custom field either on the Contact or on the membership to record the branch
and/or
B/ you create all the Branches as Contacts (type Org) and create a Relationship between the Members 'individual records and the branch
That way you can also record a relationship for 'treasurer' between a person and the branch

Given the problems with the spreadsheet, I do have to keep
it as simple as I reasonably can. Would a custom tag (possible?)
qualify as the "custom field" you suggested and be simpler /
better for connecting a contact with a branch?

Quote from: petednz on November 19, 2013, 10:08:43 am

and yes there can be coded solutions so that b/ follows automatically from a/ but you didn't hear that from me.

My lips are sealed!

I also have to deal with some permissions groupings. So far,
my scoping includes:
1) Administrators
2) Secretary
3) Treasurer
4) Regional Coordinators
5) Leadership
6) Committee
7) Member contacts

1) is a default, as I grasp it and is likely 'yours truly' + the WP web master.
2) & (3) will have high permissions levels (Read/Write/Edit all records?)
4),(5) & (6) will have Read Only permissions but still be able to print reports, mailing lists, etc?
7) will have edit-own-record permissions only.

That last one led me on to wonder if certain fields in a record
are non-editable by a member-contact, such as the first, middle
and last name. I appreciate that a change of last name through
marriage would then require the attention of some one with higher
permissions, but I can't see that being too burdensome. On the
other hand, if a member-contact can change all fields, they
could effectively transfer their member-contact status to another
person entirely and I think that would not be a good thing.

Interesting how the manuals/documentation start to make more
sense in a fits-and-starts fashion, after a few helpful tips from
other users, like you. Is there a hierarchy flow-chart-with-options
diagram lurking in any of them? Something that makes clear the
situation you described earlier, where the entire d'base is not de
facto the organisation's membership list by default?

PS
I have my grand daughter staying, at present.

petednz · November 19, 2013, 07:27:12 pm

In general we do not let a user get to 'their' record - other than via Profiles etc where we can control what they see and what they can edit.

Perry · November 20, 2013, 01:46:22 am

Quote from: petednz on November 19, 2013, 07:27:12 pm

In general we do not let a user get to 'their' record - other than via Profiles etc where we can control what they see and what they can edit.

Right. But can't a person 'get to their record' at the start, anyway,
via an on-line sign-up, if that option is to be offered?

petednz · November 20, 2013, 10:09:12 am

Maybe this is a CMS nuance.

What I am trying to describe is that in a drupal set up, while a user can be given access to eg their /user page

http://drupal.demo.civicrm.org/user

and via that access profiles provided eg

http://drupal.demo.civicrm.org/user/4/edit/Name%20and%20Address

or have access to other profiles through paths such as

http://drupal.demo.civicrm.org/civicrm/profile/edit?gid=1&reset=1

we don't normally let them get to their civicrm record eg

http://drupal.demo.civicrm.org/civicrm/contact/view?reset=1&cid=203

not sure if those paths from the drupal demo site make my previous comment clearer

http://drupal.demo.civicrm.org/civicrm/contact/view?reset=1&cid=203

Perry · November 21, 2013, 12:16:54 am

Quote from: petednz on November 20, 2013, 10:09:12 am

Maybe this is a CMS nuance?

More like hearsay. Or senile decay, perhaps?

I thought I'd heard that CiviCRM allowed people
to sign up as a member and then got the idea
that they could maintain their own record in
a small way, after being issued with a log-in ID.

Oh well . . .

petednz · November 21, 2013, 10:46:33 am

Yes it does.

BUt what I am saying is that rather than giving them access 'to their record' including stuff you don't want them to access, you can give them access to parts you want such as
- contact dashboard
- profiles eg with Address fields

Perry · November 21, 2013, 02:14:43 pm

Right - seems I was told part of the story;
or only grasped a part of the story. I'll keep
what you describe in mind. Well, somewhere
thereabouts.

Perry · November 26, 2013, 03:20:36 pm

I'm re-reading assorted manuals until my head hurts.

One aspect mentioned in the manuals that may have been
overtaken by upgrades is the options limitations imposed
on CiviCRM by various CMSs. From what I've read, Word
Press does not support any form of web-site-based mem-
bership sign-up, never mind membership edit via a profile.

Is that still so?

Oh, I asked earlier about albums on this forum. A place
for pix/diagrams that posts can link to. No such thing?
As in, must one link to an off-site source?

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Author Topic: Start Where? (Read 3659 times)

Perry

Start Where?

petednz

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Perry

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Thanks

Perry

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